Tuesday, February 22, 2005

The Land of Magog Part One

Because of a series of rapidly occurring events which might involve a possible U.S. invasion of Syria, I have decided to postpone a major essay that I am writing on the Cosmic Clock for one or two more weeks. Instead I thought it would be “prudent”, as one Gog? Bush Sr. would say it, to write down some thoughts that I summarized on the Tamar Yonah Show on Arutz-7 broadcast through http://www.israelnationalnews.com/ . The pretext of this invasion revolves around the assassination of former Lebanese Prime Minister Hariri. The real reason is that the sale by Russia of advanced SA-18 shoulder held missiles could totally throw the balance of power in a very unstable Iraq into the hands of the Syrian-backed Sunni insurgents. Even if the Shiites in the south and the Kurds in the north decide to sit in parliament together for a few months before one side decides to call it quits, a Sunni insurgency equipped with this advanced weaponry will blow the pretense of a united country called Iraq sky-high. Gog W.? needs to overthrow the Baathists in Syria as he did in Iraq. Of course what a nuclear armed Persian army will do while Gog W.? is busy trying to preserve Western Civilization in Syria is a question that only G-d can answer. The Russians obviously, for their own reasons, want to be in on the final solution to problems in the mideast, and Gog W.? is headed in the direction of the Golan Heights? We shall see.

Where is Magog? Throughout the ages those who have scrupulously studied Yehezkel (Ezekiel) 38-39 have tried to grapple with that question. Christian and Jewish scholars alike have tried to read through the tea-leaves of history while basing their conclusions on non-objective evidence which often existed in research on the subject that was being done outside the sphere of knowledge of those pundits in the religious world. The Jewish world had a few objective sources from which certain but incomplete conclusions could be drawn. About 4100 years ago the Great Flood (The Mabul) overturned the existing order here on Planet Earth. From Noah’s loins came three sons, Ham, Shem, and Japheth. 340 years after the flood in the year 1996 from the original judgment against Man in the Garden of Eden, Mankind under Nimrod son of Cush son of Ham started a massive tower building project, a tower into heaven to make war against G-d. The premise behind this Tower was that Nimrod believed that Mankind was capable, without the Creator’s providence, of creating a world of utopian Brotherhood. Laws would be written to insure world peace without the Creator meddling into the private affairs of Men, a New World Order as it would be called by another world leader in the distant future. Four years later, in the Year 2000 a.e. (after Eden) the tower would be dismantled by none other than the Creator Himself, and all of the World’s population would be divided up into 70 different language groups, corresponding with the seventy different faces of Man’s evil inclination. Thirty nations would come from Ham, 26 from Shem, and fourteen from Japheth. One of Japheth’s fourteen descendents that qualified as a language group was Magog. The Jewish sages are in agreement that all of Ham’s descedents went south from Bavel. Shem’s descendents stayed at basically the same latitude of the globe that Bavel was on but spread out from North Africa to the border with China (originally Sin who was a descendent of Ham). All of Japheth’s descendents went north. Most went into Europe. Javan became the Ionians a.k.a. the Greeks. Gomer and his descendents became the Germanic peoples. Tarshish went to the Iberian peninsula and southern Britain. Togarmah became the father of all the Turkish peoples.

The prevailing evidence demonstrates that Meshach and Tuval are Russia. Meshach has the the same consonantal root as Moscow. Tobolsk without the sk Russian suffix is Tubal. Tobolsk is the provincial capital of the western most province in Siberia. Modern Russia has a European (Muscovite) and a Siberian (Tobolskian) flank. All leaders in Russian History have either come from Europe or this Western edge of Siberia. The Russian nationalists would never accept a leader from Eastern Siberia. It would offend their racial sensibilities.

In the Middle Ages the Tatars, a Turkish tribe, conquered at least parts of the Tubal areas in Western Siberia on both sides of the Ob and Tubal Rivers. The vast swath of land to the east of the Tatar kingdom was in some cases acquired and in some cases seized from the Chinese by Tsars from the 1640s until the onset of the reign of Peter the Great as the sole Emperor of the Russian Empire. In 1689 the year Peter the Great ascended the throne, his empire extended to the Pacific Ocean. All this land from the Ob River to the Pacific Ocean had all been part of the Great Mongol Empire and was easily taken by Russia two centuries after its collapse. The Medievel Empire of the Magog (Mongol) peoples was no more. All that remained in Eurasia of Mongol independence was to be found as a large sliver of a country between Russia and China.

Yet as fate would have it, when Magog left the Tower of Bavel, he as a nation did not remain confined to Eurasia. We know that he went to the Northeastern corner of the Asian continent because for the 1000 years before it was scaled by the Mongols, the Great Wall of China which was constructed to keep out the Mongols was called by Arab traders the Wall of Al Magog. Because Magog chose the Northeastern corner of the Eurasian continent as his destination from Bavel almost 3800 years ago, he had an advantage that no other Medaber (language speaker with a divine soul) had. He either had access to the Bering Strait land bridge between Asia and North America or at the very least he had access to a very short boat ride across the Bering Strait. Almost all American Indian languages can be shown to have taken this route across the Strait. The arguments between linguists revolve around whether there were only two migrations across the strait or whether there were three such migrations. Of the three migrations the one that has been proven almost beyond a shadow of a doubt to be Mongol in origin is the language of the Na-dene Indian nations who all spoke cognates of the Athabascan families of languages. Amongst these Native American tribes that spoke these languages were the Navajo and the Apache. From a list of 36 word-pairs which are very culturally specific, the Apache pronunciation and the pronunciation of these words by a people called the Ket[1] who live along the Yenisey River in Central-Eastern Siberia definitely indicates a shared root to those words.[2] Just to let you know where the Yenisey River is, of all the rivers in Russia which flow into the Arctic Ocean, it is the only one with its source in Outer Mongolia. For all intents and purposes, both the Ket and the Apache and the Navajo are speaking the same Mongol/ Central Siberian dialect.[3]

Finally one should not get confused about the research being done in this field which says that these native Americans arrived with this wave or that wave of Bering Strait crossings 24,000 or 12,000 or even 6000 years ago, for even the linguists are in agreement that written language has only been around for 5000 years. Any attempt to study the flow of language across continents which says that a language has a primordial ancestor more than 5000 years old is to engage in pseudoscience since no written records of the language exists which is older than 5000 years.[4] Therefore, one cannot say that this or that language predates another if the predated language precedes the written word. In order to understand how mankind could physically exist without a divine soul and therefore without the written or spoken word, I recommend that one read Dr. Gerald Schroeder’s The Science of G-d (Broadway Books). One can even reach him here in Jerusalem if he is not lecturing either at Hebrew University or at some far flung location for Aish HaTorah or on one of their Discovery Weekends. The important thing to understand is that Mankind has only been around in this earthly reference frame with a divine soul in an animal’s body with an animal soul for 5765 years. The physical development of the world including the Creation of Man took place in the six 24 hour days of creation where the Bible relates the Story of the Creation of the universe from G-d’s reference frame as it existed before year One at which point Adam and Eve were forced into our terrestrial reference frame because of their sin with the Tree of Knowledge between Good and Evil. A description of how these six 24 hour days (and they really were 24 hours each) correspond with 15 billion years is given by Schroeder based on Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity and the fact that G-d fills the universe with His glory. It is a fascinating work and eminently respectful of the Torah sources. His understanding of the subject about the confluence between Torah and science is such that the Torah was given with perfection, and it is the science that will need decades or centuries of improvement to give us all an accurate picture of the physical nature of our universe. Having said this, it is noone other than the universally accepted 13th century sage, Moses Nachmanides, who informs us why the Torah says in chapter two of Geneses that G-d gave a “Nishmat Chaim” to a “nefesh chaya” (a soul of divine life to a living creature ). He informs us quite matter-of -factly that man existed as an animal before he was given his eternal “divine” soul.[5] Therefore it is very possible that two or three waves of grunting pre-historic humans, like us in every way except in their ability to speak and in their ability to make a moral decision, arrived in the Americas across the Bering Strait 12,000 years ago. What is important to know is that the capacity to speak language crossed the Strait less than 5000 years ago. The “divine spark” of his neshama had turned Man from a high-functioning animal into a being molded and created in G-d’s image. Once the divine spark had entered Man, his language speaking ability would encompass the globe. After the Flood of Noach, of course, only humans that had this neshama re-colonized the world, from Tarshish in the West to Magog in the Americas.

Magog, as mentioned above, would only survive as a sliver of a country between Russia and China and in the Americas. As Fate (a.k.a. G-d’s Hand) would have it, two centuries after Russia seized whatever remained of the Mongol Empire in the Old World, European powers with their colonists in the New World conquered the Mongol nations of the Americas. This plundering launched from America’s Eastern seaboard of what were primarily but definitely not completely hunter/gatherer societies has heretofore not been held into account through G-d’s heavenly ledger. Often according to Judaism, a trial in the Heavenly Court is held off until the one who has committed the crime starts verbally accusing others who are either less guilty or not guilty of doing the same thing. By speaking up accusatorily he creates a spirit of accusation in the Divine Court System against himself. I believe we shall soon see if this is the case as Gog? W. son of Gog? continues on his quest to redivide Yerushalayim, verbally claiming that Israel is occupying someone else’s land.

Let us now review. From the above we see the following: Meshach and Tuval never left Eurasia. Both border on the Ural Mountains, Meshach on the European side and Tubal on the Asian side. Both Meshach and Tubal are as far north of Yerushalayim as one can get without crossing the North Pole. They are in the uttermost part of the North. That they are part of an end times coalition to divide Yerushalayim and to "take of the spoils" is inescapable. Yet, Gog, himself is described as coming from the Land of Magog. He is not, necessarily from the people of Magog, just from their territorial inheritance from when they left the Tower of Babel. This could be Mongolia, but the Mongol hordes briefly made it to Yerushalayim in the 13th century when they were driven back by the Mameluks and never returned. Mongolia eventually shrank as its empire whithered. Gog could be a Russian leader from Eastern Siberia, but this is unlikely for it has never happened in Russian History that a Tsar or a President has originated from the conquered Mongol areas of their empire. All Russian leaders have come from the Western half of their large empire, not from the Mongol half of their empire.

This leaves us with one other possibility. Gog would come from the stolen lands of Magog upon which his empire sits in the New World. This "New World" empire has to be the world's major superpower in order to raise such an army that it would attempt to preserve the prosperity of its civilization by trying to divide Yerushalayim and the rest of the Holy Land for that primary purpose of preserving his civilization’s prosperity. In order to see if this applies to Gog W., we must continue with the story of the fall of Magog in the Western hemisphere.

The last great warrior chief of the Mongol peoples in the New World was Geronimo, the great Apache warrior. For years he and his band fiercely resisted capture in both the U.S. and Mexico. Only with the help of 5000 American troops, 500 scouts, and 3000 Mexican troops was he finally subdued by the U.S. Calvary in 1886.[6] He was then paraded around the country as a showcase of the superiority of European White American power and genetics. I, myself remember an exhibit that was at the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair whose 100th anniversary was celebrated by film and photos from the original St. Louis World's Fair at the Missouri Historical Society in St. Louis. One of the main showcase exhibits at the Fair was an anthropological exhibit featuring Geronimo, alive at the time. His brain size was compared to the avg. white American. When it was found to be larger, these type of humiliating anthropological studies at future public exhibitions came to end. They ended not because it was humiliating to native Americans but because the arguments which these studies were supposed to support proved to be fallacious. After being a museum exhibit for the last few years of his life, Geronimo died as a prisoner of war in Fort Sill, Oklahoma on February 17, 1909. He was buried on site in Fort Sill in a cemetery reserved for Apache Indians who were POWs against his own wishes that he be sent back to his native land for burial.

Our story should end here, but it does not. Nine years later in 1918 while stationed at the U.S. Army artillery training school at Fort Sill, Prescott Bush, the father and grandfather of two American Presidents, along with two cohorts, unearthed Geronimo’s grave and stole his skull.[7][8] You see, Prescott Bush, a future Connecticut Senator in his own right, was an initiate to join Yale University’s most mysterious secret society, the Skull and Bones Society. One might say, do you not mean Prescott Bush allegedly stole the head bone of Geronimo? If the evidence were not overwhelming that he did steal the skull, I would only allege it. Apparently, on the campus of Yale University, it is a well-known “legend” that has not been denied by the society itself, that Prescott Bush did steal the bones for the society’s Tomb on High Street in New Haven, Connecticut. [9] As a member of the band he had to prove himself, apparently, for if he had not committed this outrage, who knows how far his children would have progressed in life. The fact the Society on High Street has not denied this famous grave-robbery is bad enough. The fact that in 1986 they tried to give Ned Anderson, an Apache tribal leader, a skull that turned out to be a skull of an Indian child to make amends for their dastardly deed is proof that they have skulls on hand. Mr. Anderson did not accept the skull, for it was not the same skull that he knew they had at the tomb on High Street, for he had seen photos of the actual skull. Mr. Anderson also refused to sign a document that curiously would have forbidden him from speaking about the incident.[10] The go-between for the Skull and Bones Society was none other than Jonathan Bush, the brother of the then vice-president Gog? Herbert Walker Bush. Well, well, well. If his father had not stolen the skull of Geronimo, would it have been necessary to go to such lengths to arrange a meeting to return a skull just to smooth out an alleged crime of grave-robbery that had occurred 68 years prior? Would it have been necessary to try and impose a veil of secrecy over the attempt to make amends? I will let the reader decide. I think that this eerily surreal story stands as it is. The fact that the grave of Geronimo is today adorned with a concrete footer, implanted granite stones, and a stone pyramid is not a reason that his grave could not have been robbed in 1918. Just nine years after his ignominious death, surely he had none of these things surrounding his tomb which would have prevented access to the grave itself.[11]

The most spectacular thing about this secret is that its secrecy is disintegrating. I am convinced that Alexandra Robbins’ (Yale 1998) detailed article and her 2002 book, Secrets of the Tomb: Skull and Bones, the Ivy League, and the Hidden Paths of Power, could not have been written even one decade earlier. I am sure because of the secrets that it reveals, if she had tried to get the access that she was granted any earlier, she would have been denied. As a matter of fact when another journalist, Ron Rosenbaum, the author of a 1977 Esquire magazine article on Skull and Bones tried to get close to sources, he was warned not to get too close: “The alumni still care,” the source warned.[12] The only explanation for Robbins success is that the powers at be are losing their grip. They can no longer control access to what they do as they did for the last several centuries. Their glow which scared others into submission is wearing off. Only their use of what appears to be witchcraft can keep their enemies at bay. What is that I am saying? Here you have an organization known for its membership list, at least as much as it was known for its secrecy. A Who’s who of American leaders have emerged from its Tomb from when it was founded in 1832 as a chapter at Yale of an older German Society by the future General William Russell and Alphonso Taft, father of future Bonesman, President William Howard Taft (Presidency 1909- 1913). Henry Luce (class of 1920) known as “Ba’al” when he was an initiate went on to become the founding editor of Time Magazine. Lewis Lapham (class of 1956) a.k.a Sancho Panza by his fellow Bonesmen went on to become editor in chief of Harper’s Magazine. W. Averell Harriman (class of 1913) was known as Thor, the Viking god of lightning became the C.E.O. of Union Pacific in the 1930s. He then went on to become Governor of New York in the 1950s, served as a Diplomat/Ambassador in the Kennedy, L.B. Johnson, and Carter Administrations. The list of international bankers, Editor-in-Chiefs, Captains of Industries, Ambassadors, and Diplomats that belonged to this innocent boys club of grave-robbers goes on and on. It’s enough to make your head spin. The curiosity in all of this which is cosmically significant for us is the name that was chosen for two of the three Bonesmen who would become Presidents of the greatest gentile nation in human history. Both William Howard Taft and Gog? Herbert Walker Bush Sr. had the same name. That name was Magog.

“I am against thee Oh Gog of the Land of Magog Chief President or (President of a coalition including) Meshach and Tuval.” Ezekiel 38 and 39

End of Part One


[1] NUPI – Centre for Russian Studies, http://www.nupi.no/cgi-win/Russland/etnisk_b.exe?Keti

[2]“ Linguistic Evidence Suggests Point of Origin for Na-Dene”, by Carol Ann Lysek, Mammoth Trumpet, vol. 15 no.1 http://www.centerfirstamericans.com/mt.html?a=6

[3] “Navajo Timeline”, http://www.lapahie.com/Timeline_Right.cfm

[4] “The Peopling of the Americas”, by Ann Gibbons, Science, vol. 274 no.4, Oct’ 1996 www.unl.edu/rhames/courses/greenberg.htm There is an exception to this rule of developing a written language quickly after the spoken word develops. It does not hold true for hunter/gatherer societies which by definition are nomadic, do not build large cities, do not develop stable agricultural production systems, and therefore do not engage in trade for which records must be kept. These simple basics of civilization should have existed in many places for more than 5000 years if mankind has been around a lot longer than that and since the glaciers receded after the last Ice Age 12,000 years ago. Therefore, writing should have developed in a few places over 10,000 years ago much closer to the end of the Ice Age. The only explanation why Mankind did not develop written language until 5000 years ago in ancient Babylon was because until 5000 years ago Mankind did not have the capacity to speak anything that could possibly be written down. He was missing his spark of divinity.

[5] The Science of G-d, Schroeder, p. 140
[6] “Who Has Geronimo’s Skull”, by Susan Bates, editor of The Native American Journal, Manataka American Indian Council, Smoke Signal Newsletter Volume V Issue 13 November, 2003
[7] ibid
[8] “The Headbones Connected to … Bush?”, by Dennis Roddy, Pittsburgh Post Gazette, Sept. 23, 2000

[9] “Skull & Bones Society”, by Alexandria Robbins, http://skullandcrossbones.org/articles/skullandbones.htm

[10] “Who Has Geronimo’s Skull”, ibid.

[11] “The Headbones Connected to … Bush?”, ibid.
[12] Robbins, ibid.

12 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Please take this is in the constructive manner it is intended: the Torah of the first post (Tsunami) is much better than the pseudoscientific speculation of the subsequent posts. And more beneficial to the reader, as well.

2/23/2005 4:38 PM  
Blogger MatzahNacho said...

I've enjoyed all three posts so far and find them absolutely fascinating. It's too bad the public never learns such unpleasant things about politicians before they're elected.

2/24/2005 1:35 AM  
Anonymous Yaakov N. said...

Lubavitcher Rebbe, 16th Day of Adar, 5751:

"...although we are in the midst of exile, the dominant nation in this exile is a generous country, a country who offers assistance to many nations and offers assistance to its Jewish residents. In appreciation, may G-d grant that country success in its war against Basra and may we soon merit the fulfillment of the prophecy, 'Who is that coming in soiled garments from Basra?' with the coming of redemption."

2/24/2005 4:49 AM  
Blogger Dov Bar-Leib said...

Of course, the Creator will come forth from Batzrah, Iraq with bloodied clothes. If all else remains the same, for a very good reason to be discussed in another blog, it is the British troops that are presently stationed in Batzrah who may be the ones spilling their blood. Of course that could change if Gog....

2/24/2005 7:37 PM  
Anonymous Eldad, Jerusalem said...

MESHEKH:

Concerning this name, a fanciful and bizarre interpretation (or better, misinterpretation) is often given, in order to support some pseudo-theologic theories. Therefore, it is necessary to make it clear who Meshekh is not before going on with the true identity of this people.
Meshekh is a Hebrew name, equivalent to the Assyrian "Moshkhi" - notice that in Semitic languages only the consonants are written and are essential for every word derivation: any word that has one of the basic consonants changed cannot be related in any way and has a completely different origin.
The quite erroneous interpretation that is usually given is that Meshekh is the ancestor of Moscowites: such assertion is simply groundless and has not any support neither linguistic nor historic or ethnic. MeSHeKH (Meshekh) and MoSKVaH (Moscow) are written in Hebrew in a completely different way, as shown here:

http://www.imninalu.net/2history03.htm#Meshekh


The Real Identity of Gog and Magog

The identity of Meshekh has also been clearly exposed, yet it is pertinent to this chapter to confirm that Meshekh is not related to Moscow, neither linguistically nor historically, geographically or in any other way. We have already proved that the names MeSHeKH and MoSKVaH in Hebrew are two completely different words (see Meshekh), and that the consonants cannot be exchanged to convert one word into another.
Meshekh is mentioned in Bereshyit 10:2, and is the name of a patriarch, not of a city that was founded more than three thousand years later. In Yehezqel's times such name was applied to a people already existing, with a determined territory and identity, that was quite known by the Prophet. Such people was not the Muscovites (who are not an ethnic group but just the citizens of Moscow, in the same way as New Yorkers are the citizens of New York). Moscow was founded in the year 4907 (1147 c.e.) by the Viking Yurii Dolgoruky, and the city was called that way in reference to the river Moskva (muddy water), not to any previously existing people. The assertion that Meshekh refers to Moscow is simply ridiculous - Where were Muscovites hidden since Noach and Yehezqel's times until then? The answer is obvious.
The descent of Meshekh in present times is to be found in western countries and partially in Transcaucasia, and still in the land that Yehezqel clearly intended to show in his times, Asia Minor.

A similar and equally preposterous meaning has been given to the name "Tuval", whose identity has been on purpose transferred from the real people and place to the most unlikely ones. The tendentious theorizers have hypothesized that this name would be equal to Tobol' or Tobol'sk, in Siberia (why not Tuvalu, in the Pacific Ocean?). It is evident that such assertion is not supported by history. First, there is not any people called after the river by which they live, and Tobol' is a river, not a people. The descent of Tuval, originally settled in Anatolia, then in the Caucasus, migrated westwards to Europe, not northwards. Besides, the peoples living in the Tobol' area are the Khantys and Mansys, also known as Ostyaks and Voguls, that are an irrelevant minority regarding the population of Russia. These peoples are closely related to Hungarians, which excludes them from any relationship with Tuval.
Whoever intends to mention Russia by her main cities, will not say "Moscow and Tobol'sk", but rather "Moscow and Petersburg", or else Novgorod, Vladimyr, Kazan' or any other city either important or at least historically relevant.
The Prophet did not know anything about Tobol'sk (as he did not know about Moscow either), but he was speaking of a land and people with which he was well acquainted.

http://www.imninalu.net/G&M.htm

2/27/2005 5:25 PM  
Blogger Dov Bar-Leib said...

Dear Eldad:

I am printing out much of the info. on the interesting website that you e-mailed me to read over Shabbat. I will write you back in the comments section next week. Just two points to ponder

1. The Hebrew spelling of Moskva is a modern Hebrew spelling. There are specific rules in modern Hebrew which permit the use of specific letters for certain phonetic sounds in foreign words. For instance, I am sure that Modern day Basra is spelled with a samech or a sin and not a tsadee. The fact that the Arab world pronounces the tsadee as a samech, does not mean that the name of something as it was originally pronounced was with a samech. For instance, ancient Mitzraim is spelled with a tsadee, but in Arabic someone from Egypt is called Masri. Moscwa could very well have originally been Moshkwa with this logic. See Dr. Mozeson's book The Word. You said that Moscwa means "Muddy Waters". I will need to see a source for that. Is -wa part of the shoresh (root) of the word or is it a suffix? Another example for Hebrew letters in foreign words would be the commonly used aleph for foreign words which begin with a vowel such as Europa. Yet, Dr. Mozeson, definitively demonstrates in the 2nd ed. of his book that the actual shoresh of the word Europa is Eravah- towards the evening, which begins with an ayin.

2. Also, I find it interesting that there is a River in Siberia which is a major artery for western Siberia which is named after a people that never lived along its banks. It is common everywhere to keep the geographical names given to the place by conquered peoples or given to the place because of peoples who lived in the vicinity.
Just look at North America. The majority of the geographical features of the countries there are named after the native Magogite tribes and nations that were its original inhabitants.

Shabbat Shalom!
Dov Bar-Leib

3/04/2005 2:19 PM  
Anonymous Eldad, Jerusalem said...

Dear Dov Bar-Leib:

I respect your opinion, and find many of your comments very interesting and insightful, but I still tend to disagree with some of them.

Anyway, I think that most of the interpretations of prophecies in our days are in category of speculations, and we have no exact way of knowing in what form they will take place.

I hope you are familiar with Malbim's commentary on Ezekiel 38, it is as it follows:

Words "Are you he about whom I spoke in ancient days..." indicates that names "Gog" and "Magog" shall be forgotten, and no one will know what is the nation called by the prophet "Magog", and who is the King, whose name is "Gog". And only when he comes against Israel, words of the prophet shall be fulfilled, and they will understand - this is the "Gog", about whom it was prophesised. And words "at the end of days it will be, and I shall bring you upon My land in order that the nations recognize Me when I am sanctified through you before their eyes, O Gog." mean, that you shall be in the end of days "Gog", since only then they will know that you are indeed "Gog".

Thus, we have no certain way of knowing...

Russian theory, namely that Meshekh is Moscow and Tuval is Tobolsk, mainly comes from Christians sources, and is used to fit certain theology, but such theories have no solid basis whatsoever. Meshekh and Tuval are more likely Mtskheta (from MeSKHetian Mountains) and TBiLisi in Caucasus, ancient capitals of Iberia (600 BCE), now Georgia, named after Japhetic peoples living there, who later migrated to Europe. Or it could simply mean most trading (meshekh) and prosperous (tuval) nations, again America.

3/04/2005 3:46 PM  
Anonymous Eldad, Jerusalem said...

And...

Shabbat Shalom,
Eldad.

3/04/2005 4:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This website has a matrix of various traditional sources (Midrash, gemara, meforshim) and how they identify Gog, Magog, and the various nations that the novi says will join them.

http://magog.web-site.co.il/gog/e_gogwho.shtml

3/29/2005 12:48 AM  
Anonymous abk said...

Interesting blog
The root of the word Magog is Mem Gimmel Gimmel which in Lashon Hakodesh is defined as something that melts. America has always been referred to as the melting pot of the world which.

Nuf said

8/14/2006 10:55 PM  
Blogger michael said...

According to the Talmud Yoma 10-a Magog son of Yapheth are associated with the Goths (and) the Mongols. This is in agreement with Yerushalmi Megillah 3:9 concerning the Goths.
As concerning the Talmudic reference to the Mongols, this is of invaluable importance in the identity of GoguMagog. One bit of trivia many people are not familiar with - is the fact - the two Giants that stand by the famous clock in Londons East Side are called???

GOG AND MAGOG

How come not in Russia?
Your original blog is very important to understand, as concerning the days that we live in.

7/23/2007 12:22 PM  
Blogger Nightghost said...

This was a fascinating read. Thank you for posting it.

11/04/2007 9:37 PM  

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